Archive for April, 2013

Thurston Hopkins reaches Century

Sunday, April 14th, 2013

Few photographers in the UK get the attention they deserve, and it is only as Thurston Hopkins turns 100 that we get a little – but only a little – media interest in his work. He was one of the English photographers I included in my listing of notable photographers which I compiled on-line around the start of the century, and the subject of a fairly lengthy essay I published in 2005, when he was only 92!

I’d thought that essay had disappeared into the bit-bucket of history, though of course I have my own original copy (but not the rights to publish it) but was surprised to find it still came up in the top 10 on my Google search in a pirated version on a gallery site.  Should I be flattered? Or sue?

Hopkin’s best known work was for Picture Post, and it is now the property of Getty Images where you can search the Hulton Archive and find around a thousand of his images on line  – or only three if you specify ‘creative’ rather than ‘editorial’. Though I’d classify his editorial work – with a few exceptions – to be unusually creative.

Possibly his best work for PP remained unpublished. Here’s a paragraph of my piece:

The decline of Picture Post was clearly indicated by the fate of the story by Hopkins on Liverpool, arguably his finest work. Taken in 1956, it showed the people of the city living in slum properties with few possessions, through a series of powerful images.

A child peers from the corner of a broken window; a woman washes her face sitting crouched over a bowl of water on a newspaper covered kitchen table, her breakfast cup and plate still on it, an older woman stands among scattered sheets of newspaper in the desolate infinity of an alleyway between the walled yards of back to back streets, clutching a few packets to her breast., desolate and desperate. A child tries to sleep on a sparse bed below a dirty blanket. Covering this are sheets of newspaper, probably more to protect the blanket from falling plaster and drips of water than to keep her warm.

and I continued with the story of what became of it:

The city fathers protested to the proprietor, Edward Hulton about this indictment of conditions in their city. He put pressure on the editor (no longer Tom Hopkinson, who had left the magazine several years earlier following the dispute with Hulton over his printing of a report by Bert Hardy and journalist James Cameron on the mistreatment of prisoners in the war in Korea) and the story was dropped. Twenty years later, other photographers, including Paul Trevor, went back to Liverpool and found little had changed.

The Guardian published a nice blog about him by Observer Picture Editor Greg Whitmore entitled ‘Unsung hero of photography Thurston Hopkins turns 100‘ although as I’ve pointed out he was not entirely unsung – and my essay was probably read by millions around the world. On Friday they published a gallery of 17 of his finest images, almost half from the Liverpool piece, and you can see a more eclectic selection from the Photographers’ Gallery, largely illustrating a curious obsession with autombile fins. Getty’s gallery, which starts off with a curious travesty does improve if you scroll down, but one of the most interesting posts I’ve found on the web was written by the man himself.

March Summary

Thursday, April 11th, 2013

March wasn’t at all summery, freezing most of the time, but I still got out a bit! Here’s the full list of links and a few pictures I don’t think I’ve posted before here on >Re:PHOTO.

Easter in Staines

Let’s Get Shirty Over Bedroom Tax
Free Balochistan, Stop Dissapearances
Release Political Prisoners in Bahrain
Good Friday – Staines
Blood Diamonds at Sotheby’s

Independent Midwives Need Insurance
Barnet Spring – Save Local Democracy
Budget Day Protest against Cuts & Austerity
Bring SOAS Cleaners In-house

PCS Strikers Boo Budget
Chiswick & Hogarth
St Patrick’s Parade Brent
Syria – Two Years Fight for Freedom
Whittington Hospital March Against Cuts
Jackie Nanyonjo Murdered by UKBA

Canary Wharf

Million Women Rise
Fukushima 2nd Anniversary
Capgemini Cleaners Demand Living Wage
Vauxhall Images
Against Back-Door NHS Privatisation
Reading to Aldermaston Walk
Tortured to Death in Israeli G4S Prison
Innisfree PFI Bankrupts NHS


My London Diary : Buildings of London : River Lea/Lee Valley : London’s Industrial Heritage

All photographs on this and my other sites, unless otherwise stated are by Peter Marshall and are available for reproduction or can be bought as prints.

To order prints or reproduce images


Let’s Get Shirty

Wednesday, April 10th, 2013

It’s sometimes hard to know what is acceptable and what isn’t in terms of obscenity (and nudity) on the web and in print. I’m seldom if ever myself worried by such things, though the kind of repetitive language I sometimes hear gets rather boring – and nudity isn’t always aesthetically desirable – though what upsets me most is not the human body but the kind of retouching that makes it into something inhuman. Nice to see someone retouching the other way for a change in Celebrities Photoshopped to Look Like Ordinary People by Danny Evans.

But people actually kept their shirts on at the Let’s Get Shirty Over Bedroom Tax protest at the end of March, though some had brought spares with messages to leave with David Cameron. There were a few that were fairly inflammatory and others that were a little rude.

And in those cases where I think it might be a problem for some people I usually try to make sure I have an alternative view, as in this case.

I’m sure we will see many more protests against the Bedroom Tax, as although the amounts involved may seem chicken-feed to the cabinet millionaires that dreamed it up, it looms very large in the budgets of those who will have to pay it. Think of it terms of that man left with £53 a week after his essential bills have been paid – the average £14 a week for a single ‘extra’ bedroom is over 25% of his income.

Politicians think in terms of percentages when it suits them, but not when it doesn’t. It might help them to judge the fairness of their policy to apply a similar percentage cut to the kind of figures that they live on – which would mean someone with an income of £1 million losing around £265,000 of it. But of course, thanks to that nice Mr Osborne, they will actually be getting a little gift of an extra £40,000. We certainly are not all in it together, and I’m pleased to be one of the 467,420 who have signed the petition urging Ian Duncan Smith to prove he could – as I heard him say on Radio 4 – live on £53 a week if he had to.

The anger was clear on the faces of some of the protesters, and I predict it will get worse.

I can’t think of much to say in terms of the photography. I wasn’t feeling at my best, and it was still too cold, and there were too many people trying to take pictures. Particularly too many of the sort who are completely unaware of others taking photographs and who simply walk between you and the people you are photographing, holding a camera or phone out in front of them and seeing nothing but that small screen.

Of course when it gets really crowded there isn’t room for them, and having a very wide lens can let you work when the amateurs can’t.  When things get crowded the 10.5mm really comes into its own, but for some reason I didn’t get round to using it – always a sign with me that I’m not really quite on the ball, even when my best pictures don’t come from it.

The 16-35mm is pretty useful at close-quarters too.

More at Let’s Get Shirty Over Bedroom Tax.


My London Diary : Buildings of London : River Lea/Lee Valley : London’s Industrial Heritage

All photographs on this and my other sites, unless otherwise stated are by Peter Marshall and are available for reproduction or can be bought as prints.

To order prints or reproduce images


Blood on the Street

Tuesday, April 9th, 2013

No, this isn’t going to be a post about Thatcher or the Miner’s Strike. I’m pleased that I avoided photographing the former – except in effigy – and a little ashamed that I was too busy with other things in other places to cover the latter. But since everything else published today seems to be about her I felt obliged to start with a reference. To me she represented the triumph of the politics of personal greed that has led with a certain inevitability to our current financial sickness and Victorian or worse levels of inequality (but without any of the Victorian virtues), but perhaps even more basically that she managed to stigmatise all ideas of social conscience as the politics of envy. But enough of Thatcher, more than enough. If only it was Thatcherism that was going to its grave.

Of course my politics and my photography are inextricably linked in my life, as I think they have been for virtually all if not all those photographers I admire. Even Ansel Adams, who came to photography through the Sierra Club.

The blood in the title is for ‘blood diamonds’ and around the end of march I was outside Sotheby’s in New Bond St because as well as selling old jewels they also are in business to sell diamonds from the Steinmetz Diamond Group which sponsors the Israeli Givati Brigade which is accused of war crimes in Gaza. Although this and the “about $1 billion (the Israeli diamond industry contributes) annually to the Israeli military and security industries” was the reason for the protest, one of those present who has researched the Israeli diamond industry also told me that Israel exports more cut and polished diamonds (and they are around 30% of its exports) than can be accounted for by its imports of raw stones, and alleged that Israel secretly imports illegal rough diamonds from war-torn countries such as the Congo, and cuts and polishes them so they can then be legally sold, despite being one of the leading players in the ‘Kimberley Process’ against the use of blood diamonds. I was in no position to assess the truth of this claim, so should I report the allegation or not? As you can see in Blood Diamonds at Sotheby’s I did.

Photographically my problem was that there was really little to make interesting pictures. A few people – about a dozen protesters, not all present at the same time were all the protest needed to make its point, and there were a few members of Sotheby’s staff standing in the doorway and occasionally coming out onto the street, and the public walking past, some stopping to read the banners or taking a leaflet. But really rather little to work with, though I tried my best.

Both of the windows at Sotheby’s had a video display, and one was on their sales of antique jewellery, including a image that filled the screen with diamonds. They weren’t the diamonds the protest was about, but it was a good enough background for a photograph. The usual pictures of the protesters and placards and banners. The staff and protesters…

Then came what I saw at the time as a little gift from the photographic gods. A passing cyclist paused to look at the display, stopping his bicycle on a painted bicycle symbol on the street outside the shop, next to one of the protesters. I saw a possibility and moved to take a picture, then saw that another cyclist was walking down the street, and took a second frame just before he walked behind the hand of the protester holding out a leaflet.

It may not be the greatest picture I’ve ever taken, but it was certainly a little less pedestrian (sorry) than the rest! And to continue my thoughts from yesterday, perhaps had just a little touch of Winogrand?

Writing Through One’s Hat

Monday, April 8th, 2013

I wasn’t quite sure why A D Coleman was writing about the as yet unpublished  ‘How to Talk About Books You Haven’t Read’, by Pierre Bayard in his Nearby Café Photocritic International post How to Talk Through Your Hat (1) and making the connection between the author’s name and one of the pioneers of photography, Hippolyte Bayard seemed rather a weak link – especially as Coleman says “I’ve yet to determine whether he’s related“. But of course I knew and trusted that he would at some point get to the point.

And of course he does, if only in his later post, How to Talk Through Your Hat (2), where he talks about the development of his own critical practice, where he increasingly realised the need to make “careful description and formal analysis” central to his reviews, although as he says, “it’s hard to make description and formal analysis interesting to read, more so certainly than interpretation and evaluation.”

It’s an approach that I’ve also very much tried to take in the best of my attempts at critical writing about photography – and forced students to take in their critical studies of photographers when I was teaching, giving them a formal structure which started with these aspects, even though it was anathema to academic practice at the time. As I wrote long ago, most writers on photography would rather do anything than actually look at the pictures.

And this, rather more elegantly, is what Bayard and Coleman are saying. Coleman of course has pointed it out long before, as he says:

As I pointed out back in 1997, you can peruse the entire English-language “discourse” around Cindy Sherman’s “Untitled Film Stills” without encountering any substantive engagement with the particulars of any one image of hers.

He goes on to say that most theoretical writing about images tends not to discus its actual content, but “the literal subject matter, and their personal response thereto ― equivalent to assessing a Cézanne still life according to your preferences in fruit.

But you need to read his posts, rather than mine, and I gather from the bottom of the second post that we can expect a third on this series.

I read rather a clear example of writing about photographs without any real attempt to look at the actual content the other day in a review of the current Winogrand retrospective at SFMOMA. Caille Millner‘s review in the San Francisco Chronicle was drawn to my attention in a post by Joerg Colberg on The Ethics of Street Photography (his link to it may work if mine hits the paywall) and seems to me a near perfect example of someone writing about images without actually seeing the actual content, producing a diatribe based on her reaction to his literal subject – or one of them – women.

Millner seems to have little idea of who Winogrand was or what he was doing – or with how it changed what other photographers do, and to be completely unprepared to engage with them. She could have looked at a Picasso show and come out with the same response (probably with more justification) about his attitudes to women.

I think Winogrands attitudes and images were considerably more complex than she imagines, and although when I wrote a lengthy essay on him some years ago I wasn’t entirely uncritical of his approach to women, I didn’t mistake this as the point of his work. But unlike her I knew his work, and looked at the pictures, including those in my copy of his ‘Women Are Beautiful‘ (I got it reduced to £4.50 and it now sells at $450 upwards) and didn’t have the same axe to grind.

With the Midwives

Sunday, April 7th, 2013

Long ago, when I became a parent, we did it on the NHS. Linda I think liked the idea of a relatively clean ward with medical services to hand being looked after compared to the mess and confusion of our own home, and didn’t entertain the idea of a home birth. Back then our local hospital was clean, in a newly opened purpose built maternity unit, and seemed well and efficiently run and there appeared to be no shortage of midwives. The hospital and the ante-natal classes were a short bike ride away, though for the birth we travelled by ambulance. It was a long and tricky business and we were pleased there was a doctor to hand when needed.  Linda went back there a couple of years later for our second child.

Now, that unit has long been demolished, and most of our local hospital services have moved away elsewhere. When I had a week or two in a couple of the remaining wards around 10 years ago I was horrified at the failure of the contract cleaners to clean and it was often impossible for patients to find a nurse when one was needed.  But perhaps the replacement maternity unit at the hospital an hour away by public transport is still well run – I’ve had no occasion to visit.

But many mothers want the more personal service that independent midwives can provide, although it is only available through the NHS in a few areas, and in some respects it provides a model that the NHS could and should learn from.  David Cameron probably regrets having called the service they offer a ‘gold standard’ of care, but it is, and one that the NHS should aspire to, but unfortunately often appears to put unnecessary hurdles against cooperating with. But this protest was more about the European Union regulations and the failure of our government as yet to provide an affordable professional indemnity insurance scheme – something private enterprise has failed to come up with for over 10 years.  It doesn’t make a great slogan:

What do we want?
An affordable professional indemnity insurance scheme!
When do we want it?

but it really is vital for the future mothers of this country.

Photographically the main problem was keeping warm, though I had wrapped up well. Though I think the Nikon D700 and D800E I use are ridiculously large – probably twice the volume of my old OM bodies – you can at least use them wearing pretty thick gloves.

I wanted to avoid the stereotype that using an independent midwife or wanting a home delivery were the prerogative of rather cranky middle-class mothers, but there were quite a few present who perhaps fitted. But one speaker introduced herself as an “ordinary mother”, making it clear that she wasn’t wealthy or middle class, not someone who could normally afford private medical care.  She told of having to scrimp and save and of her good fortune in finding an independent midwife who would take her on at less than the normal rate.

One of the clichés about photojournalists is that their response to human misery is simply to photograph it rather than give help; something that is often untrue, although often the most positive thing photographers can do is to show what is happening to the world through their pictures. But we all know the story about the photographer describing the terrible condition and need of a beggar, near to death on an Indian street. “And what did you give him?” he was asked. “1/125 at f8. ”

I found myself having to make a decision in a rather less critical situation when photographing the large group picture of mothers and children which one of the gentlemen of the press had asked the event organisers to set up. Not my kind of thing, but if it happens I take advantage of it, and I’d moved in close to take pictures of a small group of mothers and children. As I did so one called out to me for help, saying she felt she was about to faint. Fortunately she didn’t hand me the baby that was rather securely strapped to her, but needed me to look after her things while she struggled to release the child.

For a couple of minutes I was no longer a photographer, simply someone giving assistance to a fellow human being. She didn’t faint, and thanked me for my help and I went back to taking pictures. I’d probably missed some opportunities, but it didn’t seem important; I was pleased to be able to help.

More about the event and more pictures in Independent Midwives Need Insurance on My London Diary.


Wintry Barnet Spring

Thursday, April 4th, 2013

The Barnet Spring march had met at the oddly named Finchley Central station (it always seems to me to be in the middle of nowhere very much) with snow falling lightly and the temperature stuck around zero with a cold East wind bringing a little Siberia to England. The weather truly seemed determined to provide a pathetic fallacy for our economic and social conditions, with austerity and a whole raft of anti-social measures coming in to aid the cold in killing off the disabled and the poor. And in Barnet to freeze out local democracy in favour of the Orwellian-named ‘One Barnet‘, selling off local services to be provided though contracts with commercial providers, leaving little role for those elected once the contracts have been signed.

Surprisingly it was the council themselves and not protesters who compared the approach to Ryanair and easyJet, producing the epithet ‘easyCouncil‘ as if offering a low-quality service on the cheap was something to be proud of.  More about Barnet and more pictures from the event at Barnet Spring – Save Local Democracy.

Of course I’d read the weather forecast and like most of the marchers had gone prepared, in my case adding a thermal long-sleeved vest and long-johns and an extra pair of socks to my normal winter gear. And I’ve found I can still use the Nikons with slightly thicker Polartec gloves, so I wasn’t too frozen, though hanging around waiting for the march to start wasn’t pleasant.

But having a couple of cameras hanging around my neck at least provides a reason to keep on the move which helps to stop me getting too cold, though I do tend to have my jacket open a little when its actually snowing – as it was fairly slightly – so I can slip the camera not in use inside it to keep dry. One big advantage of fitting your camera strap to the bottom of the camera is that lenses hang down  and don’t usually attract raindrops or snowflakes as they do on a normal neck strap, but the big filter and minimal lens-hood of the 16-35mm  make that a real magnet for them.

I’m just a little worried about taking my D800E out in the wet, as I still haven’t had the cracked window of the top-plate display replaced – when I took it into my normal repair company shortly after the small accident they told me they hadn’t been trained on these cameras and couldn’t handle it themselves, it would have to go back to Nikon.  So it’s still just covered with some by now rather worn waterproof transparent tape, which I suspect is no longer that waterproof, and certainly rather less transparent in places. But I’ve also discovered that it’s rather easier to read the things I need to see on the rear panel by pressing the ‘Info’ button.

Once the march started the snow had eased off and I actually began to warm up a little, until we’d gone about a mile. I’d just started to try and take a few images to illustrate the winter conditions, stepping back a little to photograph over car roofs with an inch or two of snowy icing and the odd tree and patch of grass, when it really started to snow. And when the march turned around  in North Finchley to head for Friern Barnet, it was really marching into a small blizzard.

Soon I couldn’t keep the lenses clear for long enough to take pictures, and so I did what any sensible photographer in the situation would have done, and as we were passing a bar I took shelter, a glass of beer and a short rest until the worst of the snow shower was over.

When I came out it was still snowing, but rather less, and I could still see the bus at the back of the march in the distance. I jumped on a local bus going in the same direction, and let it take me most of the distance – it was soon stuck in a queue of traffic a couple of hundred yards behind, and I sat on it eating a sandwich or two. Getting off a couple of stops before it reached its destination, the newly re-opened Friern Barnet Community Library – I’d been at the Victory Celebration a month earlier – I was able to run and get there just before the protesters arrived.

It was inside the library in the warm and with the breath of  more than a hundred people adding to the humidity that one of the real problems of hefty glass like the Nikon lenses came to the fore. Having been thoroughly chilled to zero degrees for several hours, they soon began to steam up, quickly becoming more or less unusable.  While the miniature optics of compact cameras and phones quickly adjust and warm up, the large elements in big lenses take literally hours to see clearly again.

Soon the only usable lens I had was the 10.5 semi-fisheye, and then that began to mist over as well. Probably the only solution is to take a compact camera as well and keep it warm in an inside pocket ready for interior use. Perhaps it’s time to update my ancient phone to one that can take pictures as well as make phone calls.


My London Diary : Buildings of London : River Lea/Lee Valley : London’s Industrial Heritage

All photographs on this and my other sites, unless otherwise stated are by Peter Marshall and are available for reproduction or can be bought as prints.

To order prints or reproduce images


Kim on Koudelka

Wednesday, April 3rd, 2013

While I think that Eric Kim in his blog post 10 Lessons Josef Koudelka Has Taught Me About Street Photography considerably overstates the obvious, most of it is good advice, and what shines through is his enthusiasm about photography and Koudelka’s work.

Although I’m also a fan of Koudelka, and have several of his books, including Gypsies and Chaos which I think are perhaps his most important works, I think Kim goes rather over the top about him – as he also does in his features on Lee Friedlander and Daido Moriyama among others. But there are some nice links to a couple of videos and his Magnum page, as well as to his books.

Incidentally I paid £14.50 for my copy of his Gypsies, the 1975 UK edition which I find is now offered on-line at over £200. The more recent version had more images and is better printed and available second-hand for around $50. Photographic books can be a decent investment, though mine tend to become rather worn, which cuts their value. But many others I bought are probably worth less than I paid for them.

Although it’s nice to be able to hold a book and leaf through it, I think you can learn just as much from Koudelka’s work on line. There are photo books that really work well as books and are not just collections of images, where the sequence and the ability to look back and forward really matter, or where the print quality of the images is vital, but I don’t think this is so with Koudelka’s work. In general I think it works as well on screen – for example at Magnum – as it does in print or even in actual photographic prints, perhaps with the exception of his panoramic work, which really needs to be seen on a greater scale. Some in the Chaos book are reproduced as 22×9 inch double page spreads.

Budget Day March

Tuesday, April 2nd, 2013

My last photographs on Budget Day were of an early evening march and rally against austerity and the cuts in public services, with George Osborne confirming the expectations that he would say these needed to continue despite the continuing lack of growth in the economy and the growing evidence that his plan is not working.

It was dusk as people began to gather – though it hadn’t been that bright all day, but it was definitely getting darker, and although I could take pictures at high ISO, as usual flash generally helped. It wasn’t a huge march, but it was quite lively, though it was tricky to catch that in the pictures.

People walking along the road with placards and banners somehow just didn’t get the spirit of the event, and I needed to find something more dynamic, with a group of students who were making rather more noise, even though I wasn’t recording sound.

This is perhaps an image with a suitably ‘bad’ composition and a little chaos that for me gets a little closer to the event, taken with a very wide angle rather close to the woman with the microphone, deliberately pushing her into the corner of my frame – and this is exactly the full frame. I had the flash angled around 45 degrees to the right and have had to do a little dodging and burning as usual to bring the lighting to something rather more even. The shutter speed (1/60s f5 16mm ISO 2500) is slow enough to give a little blur on the hand in the centre of the frame (over the headline message ‘MORE TORY CUTS’) but fortunately the rest of the image is sharp.

I didn’t stay too  long at the rally opposite Downing St, as it was just too cold. There does seem to be rather a lack of street lighting in the area, so again I was mainly working with flash, though I did make a few exposures with available light, such as this:

Also taken at 1/60 second at ISO 2500 at 16mm, this was underexposed by a couple of stops, which Lightroom coped with pretty well, but much of the light was a nasty orange, only partly correctable. I’ve tried to get reasonably sensible skin tones with a colour temperature setting of 3313Km but the placard is noticeably pink.

Flash – as in this picture taken with the DX 18-105mm at its longest – around 158mm equivalent – does give a better and more predictable light – in this case at 5450K.


SOAS Cleaners

Monday, April 1st, 2013

Justice for Cleaners!  was the clear message to the management at SOAS from the lunchtime protest by cleaners, staff and students. The School of Oriental and African Studies has a worldwide reputation which ill accords with treating any of the staff who work there as dirt, but that’s how the cleaners feel they are treated. The SOAS management keeps its own hands clean by bringing in a contract cleaning firm to do their dirty work, and cleaners are paid below the level needed to live on in London, and allege they are badly treated by the ISS management.

As well as the London Living Wage they want to have the same kind of provision for pensions, sick pay and holiday pay that SOAS pays other workers on the same site, and for SOAS to take them back under it’s management – ‘in house.’  Two of those who spoke at the rally were from Ecuador, and one of them, I think in that country’s diplomatic service, said that they now had social justice laws in Ecuador that made the kind of ‘outsourcing’ arrangement that SOAS have with ISS illegal. The only way outsourcing ever ‘works’ is by cutting the level of service provided and/or cutting the wages and conditions of the workers.

We saw it clearly when I worked in education and the cleaning was outsourced. Some of the cleaners who had previously worked for our college were transferred to the contractor, but at lower pay and with worse conditions of service. Managers made them cover more rooms, and they no longer had time to do the job properly – with dirt building up in corners and behind furniture they no longer had time to move. Many of the better workers left and were replaced by cheaper labour. The same thing happened in our hospitals, and ten years ago I was in bed in a ward where used syringes and dressings were in the dusty corners under the beds.

Cleaners in general are hard-working and want to do a good job. Like all workers they deserve decent treatment, and I’m pleased to be able to do what little I can to support their cause.

Photographically there isn’t a lot to say. Perhaps the image above raises one small issue in that it clearly shows the ID card worn by one of the people at the protest, though you can’t read it at this scale.  Often  I want to blur such information as names and bar-codes before sending images out, but on this occasion I forgot to do so.

There isn’t an obvious way to blur such details in Lightroom, but I find it is possible simply by using the Adjustment Brush to paint over them. Just select a value for Sharpness of -100 and brush over the area, and it will be effectively blurred. You can if you wish restore some of the visual weight by adding some Clarity, Contrast, Exposure and Highlight to taste, and of course can save it as a new brush with a suitable name. The two pictures look more or less the same, but the information is unreadable at any scale on the lower version.